Persons of the Dialogue: Demodocus, his son Theages, and Socrates.
Scene: The Stoa of Zeus near the agora in Athens.
Dramatic Date: ~409 BCE; Socrates is ~61 years old.
DEMODOCUS:
I want, Socrates, to speak with you in private about some matters, if you are at leisure; and if your want of leisure be not very great, for my sake however make leisure.
SOCRATES:
Nay, I am at leisure in other respects, and on your account very much so. If then you wish to say anything it is in your power to do so.
DEMODOCUS:
Are you willing then for us to retire out of the way, to the portico of Zeus Eleutherius hard by?
SOCRATES:
If it seems good to you.
DEMODOCUS:
Let us go then, Socrates. All natural productions, growing out of the earth, and other animals as well as man, appear to subsist in nearly the same manner. For to such of us as cultivate the ground it is a thing the most easy in the case of plants, to prepare everything prior to planting, and even the planting itself. But when what has been planted is in a living state, the care of it becomes great and painful, and difficult. The same thing appears to take place with respect to human beings likewise. I form this conjecture as regards other things from my own affairs. For of this my son, whether one must call it the planting, or the procreating, it is the easiest of all things; but his education is difficult, and I am continually in fear about him. On other points much might be said; but the desire which now possesses him alarms me very much. It is not indeed an ignoble one, but it is dangerous. For he desires, Socrates, as he says, to become a wise man. I suspect that certain youths of his own age, and of the same ward, have been going down to the city, and repeating certain discourses, and disturbed his mind very much. Of these he is emulous; and for a long time is giving me great trouble, thinking it fit that I should pay attention to him, and pay money to some of the sophists, who might make him a wise man. For the money indeed I care less than nothing, but think that, in going whither he is hastening, he is running into no small danger. Hitherto I have by soothing restrained him; but as I am no longer able to do so, I think it best to yield to him, lest by frequently associating with others without me, he should be corrupted. Hence I am come for this very purpose, that I may place him with some one of those, who are considered to be sophists. Opportunely then for us have you appeared, with whom, as I am about to engage in affairs of this kind, I wished very much to consult. If then you have any advice to give respecting what you have heard from me, it is both lawful and needful to do so.
SOCRATES:
Counsel, Demodocus, is said to be a sacred thing. If then any other consultation is sacred, this is so, about which you are now considering. For there is not a thing, about which a person may consult, more divine, than about the instruction of himself and of those related to him. In the first place then, let you and I agree together as to what we think that thing is, about which we are consulting; lest I may not perchance take it to be one thing, and you another; and we afterwards perceive, when the conference has proceeded far, that we are an object of ridicule, both I who give, and you who request, advice, in not thinking the same upon anything.
DEMODOCUS:
You appear to me, Socrates, to speak correctly; and it is meet so to do.
SOCRATES:
And speak I do correctly, but not entirely so; since I make a trifling alteration. For I am thinking, that perhaps this youth may not desire that, which we think he desires, but something else; and in that case we shall be still more absurd in consulting about something different. It appears, therefore, to me to be the most correct to begin by inquiring of him what the thing is, which he desires.
DEMODOCUS:
It appears very nearly to be the best to do as you say.
SOCRATES:
Tell me then what is the name of this handsome youth? what must we call him?
DEMODOCUS:
His name, Socrates, is Theages.
SOCRATES:
You have given your son, Demodocus, a beautiful and sacred-like name. Tell us, Theages, do you say that you desire to become a wise man? And do you think it fit for this your father to find out the acquaintance of such a person as may make you wise?
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
Do you call those men wise, who are skilled in that, respecting which they have a knowledge, or those, who have not?
THEAGES:
Those, who have a knowledge.
SOCRATES:
What then, has not your father caused you to be instructed, or taught you himself, what others are taught, who are the sons of fathers good and honourable; for instance, letters, to play on the harp, to wrestle, and other exercises?
THEAGES:
Yes, myself.
SOCRATES:
Do you think then there is still a want of some knowledge, to which it is proper for your father to pay attention for your sake?
THEAGES:
I do.
SOCRATES:
What is it? Tell us it, that we may gratify you.
THEAGES:
My father knows it, Socrates; for I have often mentioned it to him. But he designedly says this to you, as if truly he did not know what I desire; for in this and other matters likewise he opposes me, and is unwilling to place me with any one.
SOCRATES:
But all that you have hitherto said to him, has been said, as it were, without witnesses. Now therefore make me a witness and state before me what is the wisdom you desire. For come now, if you should desire that wisdom, by which men steer ships, and I should happen to ask you — What is the wisdom, Theages, of which being in want you blame your father, because he is unwilling to place you with a man, through whom you might become wise? What answer would you give me? What would you say this wisdom is? Is it not the pilot's art?
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
And if you desired to be wise in that wisdom, by which persons direct chariots, and afterwards blamed your father, on my asking you what this wisdom is, what answer would you give me? Would you not say it is the charioteer's art?
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
But is the wisdom, of which you have now a desire, nameless, or has it a name?
THEAGES:
I think it has a name.
SOCRATES:
Whether then do you know it, but not its name? Or its name likewise?
THEAGES:
Its name likewise.
SOCRATES:
Say then what it is.
THEAGES:
What other name, Socrates, can one say it has, than that of wisdom?
SOCRATES:
Is not then the charioteer's art wisdom likewise? Or does it appear to you to be ignorance?
THEAGES:
It does not.
SOCRATES:
But wisdom?
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
For what do we use it? Is it not for that, by which we know how to manage horses when yoked?
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
Is not then the pilot's art wisdom likewise?
THEAGES:
To me at least it appears so.
SOCRATES:
Is it not that, by which we know how to manage?
THEAGES:
It is.
SOCRATES:
But what is the wisdom of which you are desirous? What by it do we know how to govern?
THEAGES:
By it we know, it seems to me, how to govern men.
SOCRATES:
What, sick men?
THEAGES:
No.
SOCRATES:
For that wisdom is the physician's art. Is it not?
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
Is it that then, by which we know how to regulate singers in choirs?
THEAGES:
It is not.
SOCRATES:
For this is the musician's art.
THEAGES:
Certainly.
SOCRATES:
But is it that, by which we know how to regulate those, who are engaged in gymnastic exercises?
THEAGES:
No.
SOCRATES:
For this is the gymnast's art.
THEAGES:
It is.
SOCRATES:
Is it that of those, who do what? Be ready to state it to myself, as I have the preceding to you.
THEAGES:
It is that, by which persons do something in the city.
SOCRATES:
Are there not then in a city persons who are sick?
THEAGES:
Yes. But I am not speaking of these only, but also of the others in the city.
SOCRATES:
Do I then understand the art of which you are speaking? For you appear to me to say it is not that, by which we know how to govern mowers, and grape-gatherers, and planters, and sowers, and threshers; for it is the husbandman's art, by which we govern these. Is it not?
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
Nor are you speaking of that, by which we govern sawyers, and planers, and turners; for does not this belong to the carpenter's art?
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
But perhaps you are speaking of that wisdom, by which we govern all these, and husbandmen, and carpenters, and all artificers skilled and unskilled, and men and women.
THEAGES:
Of this wisdom, Socrates, I have for a long while ago been wishing to speak.
SOCRATES:
Can you say, that Aegisthus, who slew Agamemnon at Argos, had dominion over what you have mentioned, artificers skilled and unskilled, and men and women, all taken together, or over some other things?
THEAGES:
No; but over these.
SOCRATES:
What then, did not Peleus, the son of Aeacus, have dominion over those very kind of persons in Phthia?
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
And you have heard that Periander, the son of Cypselus, was a ruler in Corinth.
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
And did he not rule over the very kind of persons in his city?
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
What then, do you not think that Archelaus, the son of Perdiccas, who was lately the ruler in Macedonia, had dominion over the same kind of persons?
THEAGES:
I do.
SOCRATES:
And over whom do you think that Hippias, the son of Pisistratus, ruled in this city? was it not over these kind of persons?
THEAGES:
How not?
SOCRATES:
Can you tell me then, what appellation Bacis, and the Sibyl, and our countryman Amphilytus, bore?
THEAGES:
What else, Socrates, than oracle-chaunters?
SOCRATES:
You speak correctly. But endeavour to give me an answer as to what appellation Hippias and Periander bore through the same kind of dominion?
THEAGES:
Tyrants, I think; for what else could it be?
SOCRATES:
Whoever then desires to have dominion over all the men together in the city, desires this very same dominion, the tyrannic, and to be a tyrant.
THEAGES:
So it appears.
SOCRATES:
Do you then say that you desire this dominion?
THEAGES:
It seems so from what I have said.
SOCRATES:
O you wicked youth! Do you desire to tyrannize over us? And have you for a long time blamed your father, because he did not send you to the school of some tyrant-teacher? And are not you, Demodocus, ashamed of yourself? Who, having known a long time ago what this youth desired, and having likewise the power of sending him, where you might have made him that skilful artist in wisdom, of which he is desirous, have, notwithstanding, begrudged him this, and are unwilling to send him? But now, you see — since he has spoken against you before me — let us consult in common, you and I, to whose school we may send him; and through associating with whom he may become a wise tyrant.
DEMODOCUS:
Let us, by Zeus, then, Socrates, consult; for it appears to me that there is need of no despicable counsel in this affair.
SOCRATES:
Permit us first, thou good man, to interrogate him sufficiently.
DEMODOCUS:
Interrogate him.
SOCRATES:
What then, Theages, if we should make use of Euripides? For he somewhere says,
Tyrants are wise, by converse with the wise.
If then someone should ask Euripides — In what say you, Euripides, do tyrants become wise by the conversation of the wise? just as if he had said,
Farmers are wise, by converse with the wise —
and we had asked him — In what are they wise? What would he have answered? Would he reply that they are wise in anything else than in things pertaining to agriculture?
THEAGES:
In nothing else but those.
SOCRATES:
But what, if he had said,
Cooks become wise, by converse with the wise —
and we had asked him — In what are they wise? What would he have answered? Would it not have been — In things pertaining to cooking?
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
Again, if he had said,
Wrestlers are wise, by converse with the wise —
and we had asked him — In what are they wise? Would he not have said — In things pertaining to wrestling?
THEAGES:
Yes.
SOCRATES:
But since he says,
Tyrants are wise, by converse with the wise —
upon our asking him — In what say you, Euripides, are they wise? What would be his answer?
THEAGES:
By Zeus, I do not know.
SOCRATES:
Are you willing then for me to tell you?
THEAGES:
If you are willing.
SOCRATES:
It is that, which Anacreon says Callicrete knew. Or do you not know the song?
THEAGES:
I do.
SOCRATES:
What then, do you also desire the conversation of a man, who happens to be a fellow-artist with Callicrete the daughter of Cyane, and who knows the art of a tyrant, as the poet says she did, in order that you may become a tyrant over us and the city?
THEAGES:
You have for some time, Socrates, been laughing at and playing with me.
SOCRATES:
What then, do you say that you do not desire this wisdom, by which you may rule over all the citizens? And doing this, would you be anything else but a tyrant?
THEAGES:
I would pray, indeed, I fancy, to be a tyrant over all men, or, if not of all, of the greatest part; and I think that you, and all other men, would do the same, and perhaps still more, to be a god. But I did not say that I desired this.
SOCRATES:
But what then, after all, is this which you desire? Do you not say that you desire to rule over the citizens?
THEAGES:
Not by violence, nor as tyrants do; but I desire to rule over the willing, in the same manner as other men of note in the city.
SOCRATES:
Do you mean, as Themistocles, and Pericles, and Cimon, and such as were skilled in state affairs?
THEAGES:
By Zeus, I mean those.
SOCRATES:
What then, if you happened to be desirous of becoming wise in horsemanship, by going to whom do you think you would become a skilful horseman? Would it be by going to others than those skilled in horses?
THEAGES:
By Zeus, not I.
SOCRATES:
But you would go to those very men, who are skilled in these matters, and who possess horses, and who continually use both their own and many that are the property of others.
THEAGES:
It is evident I should.
SOCRATES:
What then, if you wished to become wise in the throwing of darts, think you not that you would become skilled by going to those engaged in the art of dart-throwing, and who possess darts, and continually use many darts, both their own and those belonging to others?
THEAGES:
It appears so to me.
SOCRATES:
Tell me then, since you wish to become wise in state affairs, think you that you will become wise by going to any others than those statesmen, who are skilled in state affairs themselves, and who continually make use of their own state and many others, and have an intercourse both with the Greek and Barbarian states? Or do you think, that by associating with certain other persons, but not with these, you will become wise in those things, in which they are wise?
THEAGES:
I have heard the discourses, Socrates, which persons say you have spoken, how that the sons of those very statesmen were in no respect better than the sons of shoemakers: and you appear to me to have spoken most truly, from what I am able to perceive. I should be senseless then, if I thought that anyone of these could impart to me his wisdom, when he could not in any respect benefit his own son; if indeed he were able on these points to benefit any person whatever.
SOCRATES:
What then, O best of men, would you do, if you had a son, who should give you trouble of this kind, and say that he desired to become a good painter, and blame you, his father, because you were not willing to expend money for the sake of these things, while he was despising painters, the artists in this very matter, and unwilling to learn from them; or if, being desirous to become a piper or harper, he should act in this manner towards pipers or harpers? In what way would you treat him, and whither would you send him, when thus unwilling to learn from those persons?
THEAGES:
By Zeus, I do not know.
SOCRATES:
Now then, as you are doing these very things to your father, do you wonder at and blame him, if he is in doubt how he shall treat you, and whither send you? For we will place you with whomever of the Athenians you wish, the most skilled in state affairs, and who will be with you gratuitously; and at the same time you will not lose your money, and likewise be in greater repute with the many than by associating with anyone else.
THEAGES:
What then, Socrates, are not you one of the excellent men? For if you are willing to associate with me, it is sufficient, and I seek no other.
SOCRATES:
Why say you this, Theages?
DEMODOCUS:
He does not, Socrates, speak badly; and at the same time by doing this you will gratify me. Since there is nothing I should consider a greater piece of good luck than for my son to be pleased with your society, and for you to be willing to associate with him. And indeed I am ashamed to say how very much I wish it. I entreat both of you, therefore, you, Socrates, to be willing to associate with him, and you, my son, not to seek to associate with any other than Socrates; and you will thus release me from many and dreadful cares. For I now very much fear for him, lest he should meet with some other person able to corrupt him.
THEAGES:
Do not, father, feel any longer any fear for me, if you can but persuade Socrates to permit me to associate with him.
DEMODOCUS:
You speak very well. And after this, the conversation, Socrates, will be directed to you. For I am ready, so to say in few words, to give up to you both me and mine, and the nearest related, whatever, in short, you may require, if you will take this youth to your bosom, and benefit him as far as you can.
SOCRATES:
O Demodocus, I do not wonder that you are so importunate, if you think that your son can be especially benefited by me. For I do not know anything about which he, who is endowed with intellect, ought to be more anxious, than how his son may become the best of men. But from whence it has appeared to you that I am more able to benefit your son towards his becoming a good citizen, than you are yourself, and from whence he has thought that I can benefit him more than you, I very much wonder. For, in the first place, you are older than I am; and in the next place, you have held many offices, and those the greatest among the Athenians; and you are honoured by the people of the Anagyrusian ward, by much the most, and no less so by the rest of the city. But neither of you can see any one of these things in me; and next, if Theages here despises the society of statesmen, and seeks after certain others who profess themselves able to instruct young men, there is Prodicus of Ceos, and Gorgias the Leontine, and Polus the Agrigentine, and many others, who are so wise, that they go to cities and persuade the noblest and wealthiest of the young men, who are permitted to associate gratuitously with any one of the citizens they please, — they persuade, I say, these to give up those of their own city, and to associate with them, and to put down moreover a considerable sum of money, and, as a remuneration, to give them thanks besides. Of these, then, it is reasonable for your son and yourself to select someone; but to select me it is not reasonable; for I know none of that blessed and beautiful learning, although I wish I did; but I am always somehow asserting that I happen to know, I may say, nothing but a mere trifle relating to matters of love. But in that kind of learning I lay claim to being more skilled than any one man of the past or present time.
THEAGES:
See you, father, how Socrates does not appear to me to be very willing to pass the time with me. For, as to myself, I am ready, if he is willing. But he says this, playing with us. For I know some of the same age with myself, and others a little older, who, before they associated with him, were worth nothing; but when they had been with him, in a very little time they appeared to be better than all, to whom they were previously inferior.
SOCRATES:
Do you know then, son of Demodocus, how this is?
THEAGES:
Yes, by Zeus, I do; and that, if you are willing, I too shall be able to become such as they are.
SOCRATES:
Not so, thou excellent youth; but you are not conscious how this occurs; and I will tell you. There is, by a divine allotment, a certain daemon that has followed me, beginning from childhood. This is a voice, which, when it exists, always signifies to me the abandonment of what I am about to do; but it never at any time incites me. And, if any one of my friends communicates anything to me, and there is the voice, it dissuades me from that very thing, and it does not suffer me to do it. Of this I will produce you witnesses. You know the beautiful Charmides, the son of Glauco. He once happened to communicate to me that he was about to contend for the stadium at Nemea; and immediately, on his beginning to say, that he meant to contend, there was the voice. And I forbade him, and said, While you were speaking to me, there was the voice of the daimon; do not, therefore, contend. Perhaps, said he, the voice signified to you, that I should not conquer; but, though I should not be victorious, yet, by exercising myself at this time, I shall be benefited. Having thus spoken, he engaged in the contest. It is worth while, therefore, to inquire of him, what happened to him after this very act of contending. And if you are willing to inquire of Clitomachus, the brother of Timarchus, what Timarchus said to him, when, being about to die, he went right against the daemon, both he and Euathlus, the runner in the stadium, who received Timarchus when he was an exile, will tell you what he then said.
THEAGES:
What did he say?
SOCRATES:
O Clitomachus, said he, I indeed am now going to die, because I was unwilling to be persuaded by Socrates. But why Timarchus said this, I will tell you. When Timarchus rose from the banquet, together with Philemon the son of Philemonides, with the view of murdering Nicias the son of Heroscomander, they two alone were cognizant of the plot; and Timarchus, as he rose, said to me, What do you say, Socrates? Do you continue drinking; but I must rise up and go somewhere. I will, however, return shortly, if I am successful. And there was the voice. And I said to him. By no means, said I, rise up; for there has been to me the usual daemon signal. Upon this he stayed. And after a slight interval, he was again going away, and said — Socrates, I am going. And there was again the voice. Again, therefore, I compelled him to stay. The third time, wishing to escape me unnoticed, he rose up without saying anything to me, and escaped unnoticed, having watched me, while I had my attention otherwise engaged; and thus departing he perpetrated the acts, through which he went away about to die. Hence he told his brother, what I have now told you, that he was going to die, through his not believing in me. Further still, you will hear from many respecting the events in Sicily, what I said concerning the destruction of the army. And the things that are past, you may hear from those that know them; but you may now make trial of the daemon signal, if it says anything to the purpose. For on the departure of Sannio the beautiful for the army, there came to me the signal; and he is now gone with Thrasyllus, to carry on the campaign right through Ephesus and Ionia. And I think that he will either die, or that he will meet with an end something near to it. And I very much fear for the rest of the enterprise. All these things have I said to you, because this power of this daemon is able to effect everything with respect to the intercourse of those, who pass their time with me. For it is opposed to many; and it is not possible for those to be benefited by passing their time with me, so that it is not possible for me to live with them. With many, however, it does not prevent me from conversing; and yet they are not at all benefited by being with me. But they, whom the power of the daemon assists to the intercourse, are those whom you have noticed; for in a short time they make a proficiency. And of those, who make a proficiency, some have the benefit firm and lasting; but many, as long as they are with me, advance in a wonderful manner; but when they separate themselves from me, they again differ in no respect from any person whatever. This did Aristides, the son of Lysimachus and grandson of Aristides, suffer; for, while passing his time with me, he made a very great proficiency in a short period; but afterwards an expedition took place, and he went away, sailing with it. On his return he found Thucydides, the son of Melesias and grandson of Thucydides, passing his time with me. Now this Thucydides, the day before, had felt some ill against me during a conversation. Aristides, therefore, after he had seen and saluted me, and other matters had been talked of, observed — I hear, Socrates, that Thucydides thinks highly of himself, on some points, and is angry with you, as if he were really something. It is so, said I. What then, said he, does he not know what a slave he was before he associated with you? By the gods, said I, it does not seem that he does. But I too, said he, am in a ridiculous situation, Socrates. What is it? said I. It is, said he, that, before I sailed away, I was able to converse with any man whatever, and not to appear inferior to any one in argument, so that I sought the society of men the most elegant; but now, on the contrary, I shun any one, whom I perceive to be instructed, so ashamed am I of my own littleness. But, said I, whether did this power leave you suddenly or by degrees? By degrees, he replied. When was it present with you, said I? Was it present while you were learning something from me, or was it in some other way? I will tell you, said he, Socrates, a thing incredible indeed, by the gods, but true. I never, at any time, learnt anything from you, as you know. I made, however, a proficiency when I associated with you, even if I was only in the same house, though not in the same room; but more so when I was in the same room with you; and I seemed to myself to improve much more when, being in the, same room, I looked at you, when you were speaking, than when I looked another way. But I made by far the greatest proficiency, when I sat near you and touched you. Now, however, said he, all that habit has entirely oozed away. Of such kind then is, Theages, the intercourse with myself; for, if it is pleasing to the god, you will make a very great and rapid proficiency; but if not, not. See, then, whether it is not safer for you to be instructed by some one of those, who have a power over the benefit, with which they benefit men, than by me, who have the power to do only whatever may happen.
THEAGES:
It appears to me, Socrates, that we should act in this manner, namely, to make a trial of this daemon by associating together. And, if he is favourable to us, this will be the best; but if not, then let us immediately consult what we shall do, whether we shall associate with some other person, or endeavour to appease the divine power, that is present with you, by prayers and sacrifices, or any other method that the diviners may explain.
DEMODOCUS:
Do not, Socrates, oppose the lad any longer on these points; for Theages speaks well.
SOCRATES:
If it appears proper so to act, let us act so.